What is Your Ideal Bodyweight
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It seems that the health and fitness industry has endless ‘Do this not that’ recommendations. It has become politically correct to tell someone what you think is ‘healthy’ for them, what you think is ‘bad’ for them, and what you think is ‘good’ for them.
The one item that has become taboo to mention is bodyweight.
It's Just Obvious When Someone Is Overweight
Think about it like this: It’s not uncommon to engage in a conversation about exercise or dieting or food in general and have someone mention what they think is the right and wrong way to exercise, or the right and wrong food to eat etc.
BUT, it has become completely out of line to mention what you think the correct bodyweight is for a person.
Imagine the conversion we might have:
You: “I think I want to start a new workout program because I think it’s healthy for me, and I also want to cut out sugar and starchy carbs because I’ve heard they’re bad for me”
Me: “That’s interesting, but I think the healthiest thing you could do is lose 40lbs no matter what you eat or how you exercise”
…not exactly something you hear over casual dinner conversation, even though it’s just as valid of an issue to bring up (if you were in fact 40lbs over your ideal weight range)
In other words, in our current society it’s perfectly ok to tell someone not to eat sugar but it’s wrong to tell them what their ideal bodyweight is…and this is an incompatible situation.
The concept of ‘healthy’ (whatever it means to you) and bodyweight have been slowly separated to the point that people deny there is such a thing as an ideal bodyweight which is also a healthy bodyweight.
We now live in an age of political correctness which forces people to selectively avoid certain truths as to not hurt someones feelings.
The point is that we have plenty of scientific information that suggests we all have a relatively predictable ‘ideal’ bodyweight for our height. The scientific info suggests that you’ll both be ‘healthier’ and look better as you approach this ideal, which makes perfect sense as a good looking body is also a ‘healthy’ body.
Sure there is some genetic variation and a small percentage of people will be slightly larger and slightly smaller than the predicted ideal for their height, but in general most of us have a very predictable and measurable ideal body weight range that can be calculated down to within about a 10-20lbs range.
The Adonis Index and Venus Index talk about ideal body weight ranges and that is the basis for our formulas and calculations with the workouts and the targets we set. In the case of the Adonis Index we’re shooting for highly developed muscle with minimal bodyfat.
With the Venus Index we’re looking for well developed and shapely muscle (women like to call this ‘toned’ muscle) with minimal bodyfat.
But it seems that nobody else is really talking about ideal bodyweight.
I know that our guys in the Adonis Index community have for the most part accepted that there is in fact an ideal weight and shape and size for their best looking and best feeling body and that’s awesome.
The next challenge we’re about to embark on is convincing women that they too have an ideal bodyweight and shape and size with the Venus Index. From what I can tell this seems to be a touchy issue with women and I’m not exactly sure how it will go over in November when a couple of guys release a book and a workout that explicitly states what we have calculated to be the ideal bodyweight and shape for women (based on height).
It’s the exact same concept as the Adonis Index and it will render the same results, I just wonder if this will just further aggravate the cognitive dissonance some women have about their body shape/weight/size or if this will actually be a freeing experience to know there is a scientifically definable/realistic/reachable target to set for their fitness and bodyweight goals.
Do you have an opinion?
John
26 Responses to “What is Your Ideal Bodyweight”
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October 25th, 2010 at 10:44 am
Good post–you’re correct in that no one wants to be the bearer of “bad” news. I lost about 18 lbs b/c I was sick of feeling fat and sluggish. Everyone commented how great I looked, but these were the same people who told me I was “crazy to lose weight.” It just goes to show you that people tend to gloss over the obvious b/c the conversation can be uncomfortable.
As for the Venus Index, I’m looking forward to it, but yes, as a woman I have concerns. Losing fat is harder for us (not that I’m implying it’s easy for men). Sometimes I feel like I restrict calories, weight lift, do a little cardio, and at the end of the month I’m lucky if I lose 2 or 3 lbs, whereas a man can lose over 3X’s that. And then you have to account for our menstrual cycles, which often causes so much water retention you look and feel heavier than you should. It’s pretty frustrating, and I think that’s why many women give up, which is our biggest mistake. Does the VI address this psychology?
Years ago I heard about a study that discovered as fat cells “shrunk” water took its place, leaving the subject feeling and looking as if no fat loss occurred at all. Then, after a few weeks went by, the water would “whoosh” out (I’ve heard it called the “whoosh theory”). I thought this was bogus until it happened to me last year. After 2 months of diet and exercise, I didn’t look or feel all that different, but as I entered the third month the change was drastic, as if “overnight.”
Sorry for the long-winded post. I don’t post often, so I wanted to get a bunch of points across. Be well, everyone!
October 25th, 2010 at 12:31 pm
Most men do not like the message of the Adonis Effect program too, but only because of the cognitive dissonance too. You’re right though that it might be even touchier with women. You said you were gonna run by the book with a few of your female friends and family and I think that’s a super good idea.
October 25th, 2010 at 6:00 pm
I hope more women respond to this posting, as well as the guys. You all have wives, girlfriends, daughters, female friends–so you must have a perspective on this. @Usernametooshort…I wanted to read about why you think this subject would be touchier with women, b/c that sounds like an interesting conversation.
October 25th, 2010 at 7:57 pm
Tail, it just seems like image is even more important with women. I don’t think that’s a bad thing at all, and I wish men were more conscious about it. In fact, I think that’s part of the reason why many men have this negative knee jerk reaction against the Adonis Effect program – they don’t think men should be so worried about image! Whereas with women, some might think no one should tell them how they should look.
October 26th, 2010 at 8:30 am
I’m a female, and I wouldn’t say that it’s touchy for me, except that people will often say that I look good, but then when I tell them how much I weigh, suddenly they take issue and say that I need to weigh more. lol I’m just under 5’1, and it seems that many people don’t understand that being petite means that you won’t weigh much if you’re slim in a healthy way.
October 26th, 2010 at 9:14 am
Lillea,
Isn’t it interesting that people will have an opinion when they hear and exact weight number, but until you mention it they won’t care.
People have created an idea in their mind of what an acceptable bodyweight must be, and I think it’s largely based around their own weight.
In other words, it’s likely that the people who say you’re ‘too light’ are likely heavier than you, or at least significantly larger than you to the point that they cannot fathom how you could be so much lighter than them and look/feel/be healthy.
I think this is a difficult issue for some people because it forces them into a category dilemma ie: “if Lillea weighs 20lbs less than me and she looks good and is healthy, then does that mean I am overweight?”
People (men and women alike) compare themselves to others and try to assess and judge themselves using someone else as the measuring stick…this just leads to frustration and body dissatisfaction…so we propose a much better measuring stick, the Adonis and Venus indexes respectively.
JB
October 26th, 2010 at 9:34 am
John said: “People have created an idea in their mind of what an acceptable bodyweight must be, and I think it’s largely based around their own weight.”
I was thinking along the same lines. I know for the longest time, I always thought my best weight was around 165 or 170 (i’m 5’9″). Mostly this was based on other men that were my height and at weight and looking at their physique at thinking “okay, that’s the physique I want and it should be attainable since I’m the same height and weight.” Turns out, it’s not that easy. Decided to experiment and drop a bunch a weight and low and behold, I feel and look better (and looking better by the day following the Adonis Index). When talking with other guys about losing weight and getting in shape, they can’t imagine getting below X weight on the scale because “that would be too skinny” and wouldn’t conform with what they might have seen other men in their height and weight range look like. I guess through all that babbling, I think people’s ideal bodyweight is surprisingly lower than they actually think and if they let themselves get past that, they’ll be presently surprised with how they look (and feel) at a lower than “ideal” weight.
October 26th, 2010 at 10:32 am
John,
I work as a fitness professional, and I get a lot of clients especially males who have an inflated idea of what their body weight “should” be. It’s as if both men and women think they have significantly higher muscle mass than they do. Drug-using models don’t help, either. Most non-users aren’t as lean as they think.
Jason
October 26th, 2010 at 11:47 am
Many “big,” albeit overweight, men also like to brag about how big they are, but are afraid to lose fat because they’re afraid to get smaller. It’s almost like they know they will significantly shrink but won’t admit it. This is their justification to remain the way they are, but I understand how they can be happy with their image whenever they take their shirt off. We even see it all the time with celebrities – we’ll see them on TV dressed well and looking good, but then we’ll see a candid beach photo and we’re shocked by how horrible they look due to their high body fat levels.
October 26th, 2010 at 11:50 am
Typo: I can’t understand…
October 26th, 2010 at 12:05 pm
Good responses, everyone. I agree that women maybe are more touchy when it comes to what we “should” look like, b/c all too often what’s presented to us is quite unattainable without surgery. I guess the same is true for guys who have that pumped-up steroid look. I don’t concern myself with these things, and if people want to do them, fine, but don’t tell me I can look like you without resorting to extremes! Anyone else feel the same way?
@Username: yes, I agree! There does seem to be a lot of men out there who think they don’t have to keep themselves in shape, for themselves or their partners. When I was in college and gained the good ol’ freshman 15, my VERY FAT boyfriend made such a bit deal about it; hurt my feelings something terrible. And it also enraged me, imagine the hypocrisy! I have to assume that there are women out there who know what I’m talking about (and fellas, I’m sure there are women that do that to you too).
October 26th, 2010 at 12:54 pm
This is a very touchy issue with couples…very rare to see a couple that has one person getting in shape while the other doesn’t. I know many of our Adonis guys have been asking about venus because their wives/gf’s have seen their man change and want to make a change too.
This cuts to a deep root of relationships and the physical attraction that is required for a sustainable relationship…if two people are not in comparable physical condition, it’s only a matter of time before attraction fades and resentment sets in and eye’s start to wander for other people in similar shape.
Tailwind, this is exactly what you’re taking about…there is only so far either person can let themselves go (if the other doesn’t) until there is a serious imbalance created. And this doesn’t even get to your point about hypocrisy of a fat guy getting upset at his girlfriend when she gains some weight.
This is a mega-taboo subject that I think needs to be talked about much more.
It’s just really hard to say to your significant other that you’re not as attracted to them anymore because they’re out of shape (think of the simpson’s episode when homer goes over 300lbs in order to get workmans comp and then marge says she’s no longer attracted to him, I know it’s a cartoon but it still illustrates the point)…from what I can tell it’s gotta be a joint movement to get in shape or the relationship is in jeopardy (at least the physical side of it…and isn’t this what got the two people together in the first place…)
JB
October 26th, 2010 at 4:13 pm
I don’t think as a woman I’m any more sensitive to being told how to look than a guy is-depending on who is the one trying to tell me. I have a difficult time taking suggestions or recommendations from someone I don’t have any respect for and/or don’t know. This is one reason I am very excited about the VI program. I have been a lurker for several years and really appreciate all the research and practical information that has been given by John, Brad and Brad. As long as y’all don’t get into the perfect bust size you should be fine.
Sam
October 26th, 2010 at 4:28 pm
I agree that the whole “numbers on the scale” can be misleading. There are plenty of “skinny fat” females in my gym who as long as the number stays the same on the scale are perfectly happy with the way they look. To someone else…not so much. Some of these ladies have more arm jiggle than a female who is more toned and yet weighs significantly more than they do. They will gasp when you tell them what the “number” on my scale reads and yet, I couldn’t wait for the Venus Index and so have been following the Adonis Index. I’m a 48 year old female weighing in at 116lbs. and my height is 5’2″. My ideal Adonis Index is a waist of 27.71 which is doable (currently 28) and my shoulders should be 44.84 which I’m not sure is doable currently at 33. So you can see that even though my “numbers” aren’t too scary, I see that I still have a ways to go to meet my AI.
I can’t wait for the Venus version to tweek in my stats even more. Keep the info coming.
October 26th, 2010 at 4:30 pm
@JohnBarban, yeah this is definitely something that needs to be talked about more. We owe it to ourselves and our partners to be in good shape, health, etc. I think, generally speaking, that women have had to deal with the “look like this, not that” message far longer than men have. It’s only been recently that I seem to notice men as a whole taking a much more active look at themselves. I don’t think I would have been upset at said boyfriend if he admitted that getting in shape would’ve been good for him, too. This was 12 years ago, obviously I know more now than I knew then. In other words, I gained the weight out of sheer ignorance: I had no concept of calories making me fatter b/c before then, I was one of those “eat whatever you want and not gain weight” types! Not so anymore.
However, there is a way to approach this with a loved one without being insulting about it. Dan Savage talks about this all the time, and he’s right. @Sam, I def agree re: WHO is sending off this information. It amazes me how so many out of shape people will react in horror if I tell them I restrict calories. I’m looking pretty good these days, so why would I want to follow their advice?
October 26th, 2010 at 5:19 pm
I hope culture preferences are also taken into account as well. A woman on the cover of Maxim will have a very different look than a woman on the cover of King magazine. As an African American woman I aspired to a shape more like Kim Kardashian than Meghan Fox. It seems white women prefer a more “boyish” for lack of a better word look i.e. narrow hips, six pack, cut arms, small butt and very low body fat. I personally like a more womanly look. Full breasts, curvy hips, high round bottom, and a tiny waist with a nice “dip.” at the sides.
Oddly enough the ideal look for a guy is pretty cross cultural. Whether black, white, hispanic, etc. men tend to prefer a certain shape whereas with women the ideal is highly diverse.
I personally do not like super low body fat in women. The fat, the softness it what makes a woman a woman. I don’t mean belly rolls and cellulite but a little “cushion for the pushin’” lol. Madonna has a super lean look a lot of women would go for yet her ex very notably said sleeping with her was like hugging gristle.
I’m rambling, but I am hoping that this doesn’t end up being another book on the market that focuses on the stick look but rather one that allows for curves since last I checked, men still dig those.
October 26th, 2010 at 7:28 pm
I haven’t read all the posts, so I may be repeating what others have said. I don’t know why I think an ideal would be harder to determine with women, but I do. Part of it has to do with different men and women’s opinions about breast size. It also has to do with what I perceive as a trumped up insistence on lower bodyfat %ages than needed. I read an article once about a woman who was hired all the time as the perfect body for clothing designers to use for designing their clothes on, not to model them. The woman was a size 10 and had 25% body fat, much higher than most fitness gurus would recommend. I know there is also research on men and women’s view of an ideal body. The women usually target a thinner body than the men. Then there is research on waist to hip ratio. I’m not sure if it was also calibrated to height for women. All I know is I have seen women of the same height look pretty darn good yet with very different body types. Doesn’t being an ectomorph, endomorph, or mesomorph play a great role in how attainable this so-called ideal will be? I’m curuous, but I also know I’m not going to be driven by an ideal that may be way out of reach. I was glancing through the book on eating clean, and the transformations in there had women with almost no waistlines. I don’t think our culture needs to see any more of that promoted.
I also wanted to comment on the post about mates and their waning attraction. A study once showed that for women who were already quite overweight at marriage, their husbands did not mind if they gained even more weight later. For women who were average or slim, their husbands were upset at a gain of 20 lbs.
I do prefer a trim man, but I was madly in love two years ago with man who was at least 50 lbs. overweight. It was totally his personality that made it because I sometimes meet men now who have similar bodies and I am not attracted to them at all.
So, it’s complicated.
October 26th, 2010 at 7:38 pm
Just wanted to add: yes, this is touchier for women because research shows that women’s self-esteeem is much more closely tied to their weight and perceived slimness than men’s is. Also, a woman’s value (trophy wife, arm candy) is often thought of as being related to her weight and looks. I’m not talking opinion here, I’m talking research. More men will still accept themselves and think they look good at higher weights than women will, though this might be slightly changing. However, one element that is tied to men’s self-esteem is their hair or lack of it. I guess we want people to feel bad about themselves because they do have some control over their weight, but not their hair, directly.
(Beautiful women will often be proud to be seen with a powerful man, even if he is fat or even bald! When have you seen a powerful man in Hollywood show up to a premier with a dumpy woman? Maybe they do, but they aren’t often on camera.)
October 26th, 2010 at 9:18 pm
To all the men and women posting here:
The fact that you are posting here means you are probably an “exception to the rule!”
October 26th, 2010 at 10:17 pm
@Oolala53, I also wonder if powerful men don’t have to look good, but the woman on their arm must be the type to make their friends jealous.
@kbragg, I agree: not into skinny women. I’m really hoping the trend for what’s considered “beautiful” starts to swing the other way. I really don’t see how someone who is emaciated is considered attractive.
I guess the system is designed for just about anyone to feel bad about themselves…it’s proven we spend more dollars when this happens. It’s all a big scam. To me, there is a big difference between looking lean/athletic and looking anorexic and sick. I sure wish Hollywood and the media would stop hammering these “ideal” images home. It’s doing damage to people, but who cares when the Big Wigs get to profit off our despair, right?
October 26th, 2010 at 10:31 pm
I’m enjoying reading the comments here! Lots of great insights and observations.
Great point, John, when you wrote this:
“In other words, it’s likely that the people who say you’re ‘too light’ are likely heavier than you, or at least significantly larger than you to the point that they cannot fathom how you could be so much lighter than them and look/feel/be healthy.”
Wow, yes. Everyone who said that to me was struggling with being overweight to some degree! Interesting.
I really look forward to reading the Venus Index so I can see where I am there.
Comment about breasts:
When slim women have larger breasts, either naturally (less common) of via breast implants, I’ve noticed that people tend to question their health status *less* (as long as the implants aren’t too fake looking) than if they are flat chested. It creates the illusion that they have a different waist to hip ratio than they actually do, it seems. It can even fool me a little!
October 26th, 2010 at 11:07 pm
@Lillea I agree about the bigger boobs. I don’t ever remember being smaller than a DD even in a size 4 and I was always able to carry more weight/have a larger waist than smaller chested women of the same weight/body size.
@Tailwindnyc It seems the ideal is changing the more culturally mixed the country becomes. Back to Meghan Fox, one of the reasons (besides her crappy attitude lol) she was kicked from the 3rd Transformers movie is because as the director put it “she was too skinny.” She was replaced by a much curvier VS model for the role.
Slowly but surely the Paris Hilton/Meghan Fox look is going out and the JLo/Beyonce/Kim Kardashian/Jessica Alba look is coming in.
October 27th, 2010 at 12:34 am
Kbragg, looking forward to the day when they overtake them completely!
October 27th, 2010 at 5:50 am
Dear John,
Here in Germany (Munich) body consciousness has, I must say faded.
I have to battle my way through crowds of smokers every morning, as they tend to hoard in front of my university´s entrance. Most of my peers are skinny fat and don´t care about working out.
It has been replaced by status, work and other stuff (a novel way to dress etc…)
So,I personally haven´t experienced such an obsession with the “ideal” bodyweight around me.
Your case against bulking in one of the adonis effects podcasts speaks to me.
I have done my a-levels in Wales and joined the rugby team.
All I can say is that yes I got pretty strong (400 pound squat and 500 pound deadlifts, the big lifts and all that), but looked terrible due to overconsumption of food.
Now at a height of 6 foot I weigh between 160 and 165 and feel MUCH BETTER.
The point to take away is that bodyweight is utterly irrelevant to your fitness goals: When people ask me about my weight, I have them take a guess, and they almost always overestimate me by roughly 20 pounds or so.
It is about how YOU look and feel at a certain weight.
Statistics/numbers and to some degree even performance (obsession over strength) have nothing to do with it.
Toss the scale or only use it as means of tracking progress, when needed.
Disregard what other people have to say about this issue too.
Only you can know for sure.
October 27th, 2010 at 11:22 pm
Last year I lost 20+ pounds and dropped from a size 12 to a size 8. I could still stand to lose some gush from my gut and a bit of flab from my arms, but I’m afraid to. In this process my boobs have become a sorry deflated version of their former selves. I may look better in clothes, but I am more self-consious when I’m naked. Still trying to figure out what to do and what my ideal weight is.
November 13th, 2010 at 10:17 pm
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