Emotion vs Logic - What You Feel vs What You Think

Yesterdays post generated an interesting discussion, and one of the comments stimulated today’s post.

Logic vs Emotion

I want to thank Irene for her comment because it forced me to elaborate my point and also clearly demonstrates the issue at hand and reason for yesterdays post in the first place.

Yesterdays headline was written in order to get attention, the more attention the headline can grab the more people will give a read and hopefully a good discussion will start. This is just standard stuff and how all media function.

From there Irene pointed out that she didn’t understand the point of my post and questioned if I was perhaps starting a fat person haters club.

Obviously on a blog it’s difficult to properly express emotion with written words. To be clear I was writing from a logical position centered around my stated hypothesis about the human reaction to bodyfatness.

However, I cannot control the emotional lens you filter your reading through. I’m sure if 100 different people read yesterdays post there were 100 unique emotional reactions to it.

The potential emotional reactions to yesterdays post is the whole point of why yesterdays post is so difficult to talk about. How do we bring up the topic of body shape and body fatness and our reactions to it and keep the emotion out of it? It’s difficult to come to a logical conclusion if the discussion is clouded by emotion.

Getting to the root of the reaction seems to be one of best starting points to find a solution. BUT if we can’t find a way to talk about it we’ll never get going on a solution.

So, I’m asking you, how do we talk about it?

John

Posted by johnbarban in Fat Loss, Human Nature

Tags: emotion, logic |67 Comments

67 Responses to “Emotion vs Logic – What You Feel vs What You Think”

Dan Richardson Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
I think the way you approached it was accurate. Some things just have to be talked about and there’s no way to tip toe around it. Let’s face it, the reality is that what you said is true. Even for those of us who are fat know it’s true. We just hate to hear the truth about it. We somehow how want people to love us just the way we are. And reality is that they do love us as a person, but that doesn’t mean they have to jump for joy over our fat. Is it harsh? Yes! But now that I’m out of the mindset that I’ll always be fat, I’m starting to see how much of an addiction the whole world is caught up in when it comes to eating and justifying our fat bodies.

My wife is cutting way back on her calories and one of her co workers comments on her lunch every day and then proceeds to justify why she eats so much and always coming back to the fact that her whole family is rolley polley and that there’s nothing she can do about it. BS!

Sorry. Rant over.
Pat Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 2:04 pm
People can’t deal with reality. That’s why so many people use medication, drugs, alcohol and food. Food as comfort, not the best way to deal with anything. Now your gaining weight and dealing with whatever you needed comforting from. People need to look to food as a means of survival, not something to do. Sure there’s not many social activities without food present, that doesn’t mean we need to stuff our faces every time food does present itself. Eat whatever you want, just don’t over do it.

I used to be fat and I’m in the process of losing the last of that fat now (13-14% body fat). I used to believe that my weight was genetic, looking at my family, now I see it was my environment. My dad eats like a pig and had junk food in the house, so we ate it. He ate two plates of food at dinner, we ate two plates of food at dinner. Now me, my brother and sister all the lost the weight we gained in adolescence. Genetics is just another excuse for people afraid of changing.

Also it gets to me when people ask me for weight loss advice then ignore it and think I’m being mean or I’m wrong, no I’m proof. If your too lazy to count or estimate calories, how can you ever expect a change in your weight. People spend hours watching television but can’t spend a minute in the gym. People act like there too busy, yeah, we’ll I’m too busy to waste anymore time explaining this to you, time to hit the gym.
Dan Richardson Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 2:08 pm
Haha…Pat. EXACTLY!
Pat Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 2:14 pm
I went off topic on my earlier post.

Yesterdays post achieved it’s goal of getting attention and I really enjoyed it. I believe if your a couple pounds under, couple pounds over a reasonable weight, that’s fine. If you look like Violet in Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory, then maybe you need to lose some weight. There is more to life than just “what’s for lunch?”, “what’s for dinner?” Spend time with your family, read a book, exercise. I’m so glad, and feel much better then I did years ago, now that I have this part of my life handled. Extra attention from the ladies doesn’t hurt either. Glad I found your blog/podcast/Adonis Effect, John. I was eating 6 meals a day and trying to stay above 1500 calories…starvation mode…blah blah blah. Anyway, thanks.
Jordan Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 2:28 pm
Good point, Pat. Someone might say, “everyone in my family is overweight.” Well, yeah, because they all had a similar upbringing and eating habits!
Leonardo (previously LN) Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 2:47 pm
John,

I agree with this post and the previous one, but I think that your use of the word “fatties” and mentioning that you never said you were a nice person in the previous post removes the credibility of this post because it demonstrates your personal (emotional) opinion on overweight people. Had you not used the word “fatties” and maintained a neutral position on the matter, Irene would have been completely wrong and you completely right. (my opinion of course).
johnbarban Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 2:51 pm
Leonardo,

Interesting point, but you’re reading into that word whatever emotional/opinion you like. Have you stopped to think that you’ve already passed a judgment about my opinion without asking me?

JB
Leonardo (previously LN) Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 3:04 pm
lol well I guess the most slack I can give you is to say that the neutrality of the word “fatties” depends on the person using that word. But, you and I both know that the word “fatties” holds a negative connotation. The question now would be, how did YOU mean it? If you genuinely meant it to be neutral (which I frankly doubt, due to its being combined with your comment about not being a nice person), then you are completely right.
johnbarban Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 3:17 pm
Leonardo,

Touche. And another good point. As you’ll see I edited my comment back to you at the same time that you posted your latest comment. And you did exactly what I was waiting for and that is to ask me what I meant.

To me that word just sounds funny and I often use it in jest. Is it inflammatory and offensive to some people? Of course. Do I care…not really. I think everyone just needs to lighten up a bit. Sure this is a sensitive topic, and within the science and theory of it all I think there is still room to keep the conversation light. Perhaps words such as ‘fattie’ are just too difficult to throw around without people taking it the wrong way, or taking it any way. (that word just makes me laugh)

Do I have a problem with people over a specific BMI. Not at all. Do I think I can help them get to a lower BMI if they want to, you bet!

Do I care if some people don’t want to change their body? Nope. It’s your body not mine, and it’s none of my business what you do with it.

On the other hand if you DO want to change your body, then I know I can help.

JB
Leonardo (previously LN) Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 3:26 pm
ok I see that you’ve removed the paragraph containing the word “fatties” and the comments about the cupcake and you not being a nice person. Since you did that, this post here now is credible.

Although I must say John, that I find it rather unfair that you are able to edit your posts and comments to suit your arguments, even when you have been proven wrong. If that option is available to you, it should be available to all of us commentators. Or, don’t have that editing option for anyone, just to keep things fair.
Leonardo (previously LN) Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 3:27 pm
ok I just read your comment. You see in this situation I would like to remove my last comment (since having read your latest comment). I don’t see that option anywhere on my screen so you if you can, go ahead and delete it.
Dan Richardson Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 3:29 pm
And that’s the other side of it. If you made fun of fat people all the time, laughing in their face, you’d be out of a job. I doubt you’d say something like that with that intent.
Leonardo (previously LN) Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 3:33 pm
ok now wait a minute LOL I thought you were referring to the editing that you did to the “fatties” post, but you are referring to the comment you edited. So now in THIS situation, I would like to keep my comment about the unfairness of the editing options. I hope there’s no confusion.
johnbarban Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 3:36 pm
Leonardo,

Yet another great point. I’ve already taken care of your request (refresh your browser)

So I think we’ve arrived at some understanding of intentions and meaning. I’m glad you feel free enough on here to prod me.

This blog thing is an interesting medium of communication and even though we all communicate here on a fairly regular basis we still really don’t know each other that well on the other side of these computer monitors.

I’m trying to show you as much of me as you care to be exposed to while still providing you with info that helps you along, and getting everyone on here engaged.

If it seems to you that I’ve gone off the tracks a bit by all means do as you’ve done here and speak up.

Like I said before, it is appreciated.

JB
johnbarban Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 3:37 pm
Leonardo,

I didn’t do any editing on the ‘fatties’ post. I’m not sure I understand what you’re referring to now?

oh man ha, I think we’re both getting crossed up on this one.

JB
Leonardo (previously LN) Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 3:52 pm
ok I see the word “fatties” once, in the paragraph right after point #3,

“People who put on increasing amounts of weight had to get the food from somewhere. Since food is scare that means there is less of it to go around for you if the fatties are eating up more than they need. (of course this is exactly what is happening globally, but that is a much more complicated issue)”.

Oh ok I see that you only removed the part that went along the lines of, … “oh well, what can we do about it? Give them a cupcake so they can feel better about themselves! (I know, that was mean, but I never said I was a nice person!)”

You meant that you only removed that part, right?
johnbarban Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 3:58 pm
Leonardo,

I’m not sure where you are looking because that part is still there when I look back through that post.

JB
Leonardo (previously LN) Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 3:58 pm
John, I never requested that you make any changes to your “Excess Body Fat Is Repulsive” post. You did that all on your own to suit your argument and the to give credibility to THIS post here.

My request was to have my comment about unfair editing options stand. I see that you removed that comment (since I told you it was ok to do so) and I don’t think there is anyway of adding it back unless I myself retype it and re-post it, which I think I should do.
johnbarban Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 4:02 pm
Your post has been restored.

But I still don’t understand what you mean by yesterdays post? It was never edited

JB
Leonardo (previously LN) Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 4:09 pm
In which paragraph is the word “cupcake” exactly? I’ve refreshed and re-read the entire post 3 times now and I don’t see it anywhere. Does anyone at all see the word “cupcake” in the “Excess Body Fat Is Repulsive” post? If others see that the post has not been modified at all, I will be quite worried about the functionality of my browser. But it would surprise me that my browser is not functioning properly, seeing as everything else is working properly.
johnbarban Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 4:12 pm
Leo,

The cupcake line is in a comment I made on yesterdays post, it’s not in the post itself. And it’s still there if you look through the comments.

JB
Leonardo (previously LN) Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 4:16 pm
ohhhhh yess I see it. My mistake and apologies!
Josh B. Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
Leonardo,

The ‘cupcake’ statement was only in a comment left by John B on yesterday’s blog post. I’ve been keeping up with the blogs on a daily basis and only recall seeing that particular statement in his comment, not in the blog post itself. And besides there is no reason for him to repeat the same statement twice, so why would it be in the blog post AND in a comment?

Josh B.
Josh B. Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 4:24 pm
Ahh you found it haha. okie doke
Leonardo (previously LN) Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 4:47 pm
Josh,

I initially thought that the cupcake remark was in the post, not remembering that I actually saw it in a comment, which was my mistake and I apologized for it. I never implied that he made the same comment in both the post and his reply to Jennifer’s comment.

Josh (and anyone else this applies to), I am both an Adonis Effect and Eat Stop Eat customer and in fact I am a participant in the current AE 12-Week Transformation contest. I also am a fan of and have respect for these guys and all the information they’ve provided me with, but I am not a “fanboy” (someone who shows intense, enthusiastic, *unconditional* support, sometimes at the cost of logic, common sense, and fairness). After John’s “Excess Body Fat Is Repulsive” post, I’ve discovered who the fanboys are, and there are probably more to come. I myself formulate my opinions based on my own belief system, and my opinions here are not influenced by my emotions. John has said himself that he appreciates when we speak up and get engaged.
Shea Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 4:53 pm
sh*t and shine-ola Leonardo – i find it immensely puzzling that you are so concerned with this oh so peripheral aspect of the discussion, but i’m sure you have your reasons so shine on, you crazy diamond (hopefully you don’t take too much offense at that Pink Floyd line – i just mean ride it until it bucks you off – and now i hope you don’t take too much offense at that). unlike you and a couple of others on here, for me john’s side comments do not detract from his credibility or the strength of his argument because i don’t see how they are substantively related, and i have a sense of humor: cupcake, cupcake cupcake!

this emotion/logic discussion is more than just a health or fitness thing for me but also a professional concern of mine as i conduct research into the interplay of emotion and logic in political reasoning which i’ve presented at a couple of academic conferences (including one at the Empress hotel in Victoria – a nod to you Canadians out there JB and Brad P. – great hotel and city, by the way).

what i have studied experimentally are the automatic (or pre-cognitive) reactions people have to political stimulus that affect their subsequent cognition – think of the racial stereotype tests, but with politically relevant pictures. what we find is that there are significant differences in automatic reactions between Republicans, Democrats and independents (i’m in the U.S.). anyway, this applies to the current discussion as it appears these automatic emotional reactions kick-start and then bias subsequent reasoning, but because they are automatic we are not aware of their influence and we thus construct stories to justify how we already feel.

this is also one of the principal mechanisms behind the Adonis Effect as well as the “disgust” (easy there, Leonardo) response to obesity as people are automatically responding to certain body types and then constructing rational stories after the fact to explain their feelings. this is not to say that we are fully slaves to our emotions, as stereotype studies show that many people have automatic ‘racist’ reactions but then are able to counteract these with more conscious effort, just that there is a whole lot going on in our reasoning than just what we are conscious of, and as illustrated by this thread the same clearly holds for body image as well.

anyway, just an interesting confluence of professional and…private? physical? health-related? interests…
Kris Wragg Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 4:55 pm
I think most people lack the ability to think purely logically without any interaction of emotion.

My initial response to the post was that I totally agreed, I don’t see why so many people are overweight and some people are truely happy with it.

I guess the same thing can be said for a lot of illogical things though. But for the most part, most problems with humans and society at the moment are ultimately to do with either power or money (perhaps even the same thing really?)

There are many drugs that are illegal, and rightly so, but if tobacco and alcohol were totally new things would they be legal? The effects of both are just as bad as some class A drugs in the long term, and they cost society an absolute fortune.

The same can be said for junk food… do we need junk food? NO… why do we have it? because its cheap to make and you can make lots of profit on it, plus people get addicted to it… thus a vicious cycle that makes people fat due to lack of self control!
Ralph Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 5:01 pm
No matter how you slice it, the truth will always hurt. The fact of the matter is that Johns Original blog was not based on fact…. it is a fact with the majority of people. With that said, Some people will be able to handle it and other will not and to be quite honest with you I’m kind of tired of people always trying to be politically correct all the time.(not trying to be harsh..just stating my opinion!!) I used to be in the Direct marketing field and when we used to ask people to take surveys and you would be surprised to learn that statistically speaking 90% of the people Lie when posed with a tough question because they were affraid to look like the bad guy.

To get back to John’s question of how do we talk about it…Id say for John to go about it the same way he Does when people argue with him about the same old diet questions that he know the answers to…. Do it with Kid gloves and hope that the information stick somehow!

All the best!

~R~
johnbarban Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 5:05 pm
Shea, Leo (and whoever else is reading this far into this thread),

You guys are what make this blog worth writing. And I don’t want to censor anyone…BUT (yes I know, this is the proverbial “BUT”)

Let’s play fair.

Remember the point of this blog was to have a logical discussion, AND I explicitly state it does NOT have to be politically correct…but it DOES have to be respectful. This goes for me too…if you feel I’ve managed to disrespect any of you I expect to be called out on it.

So I’ll take this moment to remind you of the same thing with each other.

JB
johnbarban Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 5:09 pm
Ralph,

Great insights from your marketing experiences, thanks for sharing that. Isn’t it ironic that we actually have to put the ‘kid gloves’ back on for adults! Kinda makes you think many people just haven’t grown up yet. Incidentally that is one of my theories about the paternal nanny welfare states we live in here in north america. I think the public school system and the political environment in general keep many people in a semi child/adult state where people just haven’t learned to grow up and think for themselves….Shea you want to take a crack at my analysis here.

JB
Shea Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 5:16 pm
yes – i officially make nice with all other sentient beings out there (i’m afraid this is going to come off as sarcastic, but i really do mean it). tone is so hard to communicate effectively via a medium like this. just having a little fun trying to get a laugh or two. no hard feelings at all towards or about anyone on this forum.
Shea Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 5:18 pm
hmmm…interesting proposition, JB – let me think on it a bit…
johnbarban Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 5:30 pm
Shea,

I must also tell you that I’m an amateur student of the Austrian school of economics. I was introduced to it via mises.org and it’s one of my favorite podcasts on itunes. Not sure if you’re familiar with them or not, but I figured I’d share that. I guess you could say I’m a libertarian although I’m not a fan of political labels. In other words I’m pro free market.

My position on governments is that they simply shouldn’t exist (gov defined as an organization that generates revenue via taxation through coercion)

JB
Leonardo (previously LN) Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 5:52 pm
lol wow oh wow, if you could only step out of yourself and see your reaction. Alright, here we go:

This aspect is peripheral? John’s entire point of this post here (Emotion vs Logic) was essentially to call out Irene for the comment she made on yesterday’s post, and to say that he wrote yesterday’s post based on research data, and not his own personal opinion of overweight people. But, in actually, his use of the word “fatties” and the cupcake remark, which were both proven to have negative connotations by his remark about him not being a nice person, COMPLETELY go against his defense of yesterday’s post being based on research data as opposed to personal opinion. And saying that he finds that the word “fatties” sounds funny is a hiding place because no matter what his personal opinion of the word “fatties” is, that word holds a negative connotation and no one here can say that’s not true (come on people). Not only does it go against THAT defense, but it renders THIS post (Emotion vs Logic) completely base-less. As a matter of fact, John should feed HIMSELF this post because he is accusing Irene of doing exactly what HE did (basing an argument on emotions, he let his personal feelings about overweight people creep into yesterday’s post). You see, Irene turned out to be correct, but she didn’t do it on purpose (if no one else understands this, I know John does). So, peripheral? I really don’t think so.

I find it rather surprising that you conduct research into the interplay of emotion, yet you are completely blind the the true meaning of your reaction to my comment to Josh. You expressed intense anger towards me, and one thing I know is that anger is a powerful emotion that can only be provoked by an *Affective* situation/action/remark. Everything you threw at me is meaningless filler/gibberish because it doesn’t change the ROOT of your intense angry reaction (look deep into your heart, if you were truly impartial, would you have reacted that way?). Your reaction proves my point: you are a fanboy.

AND! I won’t even get into what your choice of insult might be saying about you lol

John I do respect your wealth of knowledge (clearly, since I’m a customer), but I also have to analyze certain things you tell me (the things I don’t entirely agree with) in order to formulate my opinion on it (and most of the time I agree with you). I cannot just blindly read and believe it all. And do you know why I cannot do that? Because I understand that even my heros have faults and are not perfect (which makes me relate to them even more). And do you know what else? I wouldn’t have it any other way.

I hope I’ve made myself clear.
Leonardo (previously LN) Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 5:57 pm
oops I forgot to put in his name. That last comment was directed at Shea.
Shea Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 6:09 pm
Leo,
wowzers – how can i possibly remain standing in the face of such a withering dressing-down (and yet i do)? your keen analytical skills have uncovered much more intensity – “anger?” you seriously detected “intense anger” emanating from my post? – than i could possibly muster for something like this. not sure what else to say other than i still have no hard feelings for or about you or your opinions. just a little confusion mixed with mild bemusement.

cheers
Leonardo (previously LN) Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 6:11 pm
“sh*t and shine-ola Leonardo – i find it immensely puzzling that you are so concerned with this oh so peripheral aspect of the discussion, but i’m sure you have your reasons so shine on, you crazy diamond (hopefully you don’t take too much offense at that Pink Floyd line – i just mean ride it until it bucks you off – and now i hope you don’t take too much offense at that)”

That doesn’t sound angry to you? LOL whatever helps you sleep at night.
Anthony Ramos Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 6:14 pm
John:

More insane “I can’t lose weight” excuses:

http://futurity.org/top-stories/are-belly-bacteria-making-us-overeat/
Anthony Ramos Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 6:14 pm
and I knew someone as sharp as you would ascribe to Austrian economics
Shea Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 6:32 pm
(nope, sorry, still not angry – in that quote, though, i was hoping to come off more like a crotchety old gold miner from like the 1840s like Yosemite Sam or something, so it is doubly perplexing for me that you translated that as real animus)
Leonardo (previously LN) Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 6:42 pm
jesus christ Shea, listen to me: just the fact that you felt the need to insult me proves that you felt anger. Can’t you see that? Otherwise you would have absolutely no reason to insult me. You can play it off as playful sarcasm but you and I both know how you felt. Not only that, but look at your choice of insult. A guy will pull out the “gay” insult if he REALLY genuinely wants to insult another guy, and you know it. Your intention was to insult me RIGHT? IF YOUR ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION IS YES THEN I HAVE PROVED MY POINT. I’m done with this, go ahead and have the last word because I honestly don’t care anymore. EVERYONE HERE INCLUDING JOHN KNOWS I AM CORRECT. PEACE
Ralph Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 8:24 pm
John!
First off, I want to apologize for my bad grammar and spelling in my last post. I tend to rush things when I type and I forget to proof read what I’ve written lol With that said, I could not agree more about what you said about the public school system and the political environment and it only seems to be getting worse.
I also agree with you about it being ironic that we would have to put the kid gloves on but what can you do? lol. Not to suck up to you or anything but this blog and your site are awesome and I always look forward to see what you, Brad Pilon and Brad Howard come up with!!! The information that you guys have given me has helped me beyond words. All the best!… Now I’ll let Shea and Leo continue to duke it out! (Just kidding gents!)

Ralph
Donatello Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 8:56 pm
Well Leonardo, speaking as a gay man with the perfect AI after working really hard at getting it, I read your last post (and all your posts) and found that your posts are nothing but a waste of time talking about one little part of the big discussion. I don’t find John’s posts offensive, essentially because I’m pretty secure with myself and my identity. It is fine if your posts meant to iron out some logic, but to be objective, it doesn’t. You didn’t have to put caps lock to make your point known. It doesn’t change what you write except make you look rude.
Shea Says:
March 6th, 2010 at 12:44 am
Donatello,
i am curious about where you started (body weight and measurement-wise) and how long it took you to get to your golden AI, and then what have been your experiences with the Adonis Effect, like have you noticed increased attention both professionally and in your personal life, and just what your opinions are about the differences and similarities of the Adonis Effect between/for gay and straight men. this is a perspective i haven’t heard much about in these regards, but it is interesting to me what these differences or similarities might be (if you feel comfortable talking about these things, which it seems you do).

cheers
Chris R Says:
March 6th, 2010 at 12:46 am
Well, to Shea and Leonardo – As someone with a mere undergraduate level education, and after reading that entire transaction, I suspect that there were no less than about 7 logical fallacies completely violated. Of course, I have no idea which ones they were.

Just to dumb it down for those of us with a mere earthly intellect, I’m assuming that Shea represtents the ‘Logic’, and Leonardo the ‘Emotion’ of this equation? Of course I’m kidding….I’m just a little perturbed that I read this entire thread (with train wreck like fascination) only to realize that any original point seemed to be overrun by your respective desires to out-do one another with flowery verbiage. I apologize….it just took me a damned long time to read all those posts!!!
Chris R Says:
March 6th, 2010 at 12:58 am
PS – I forgot to add LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! I realize that reads as a pretty sarcastic post (and it was) but I assure you my intentions were light hearted!! I also have great respect for John and this site.
Shea Says:
March 6th, 2010 at 1:32 am
(Chris, if you thought my last posts were verbose, let me apologize in advance for this one…)

JB,
i started out my academic life in economics and got my minor there before i moved to poli sci, and the Austrians were the school i liked best and related to most (them and the behavioral economists), so i understand the appeal and the libertarian bent.

as far as the link between a nanny state and a general lack of personal responsibility, it does seem at the very least correlative if not outright causal. i always hesitate to draw such sweeping conclusions because i recognize the uber-complexity of it all and know the ease with which our minds can link causally unrelated facts together into a coherent story that is fundamentally untrue, BUT if i had to call it i would also say there is a connection between a government that increasingly insinuates itself into almost every facet of private life and the perpetual adolescence that seems so pervasive today precisely because people become accustomed to having government there to bail them out.

as either a cause or an effect of this, i would also cite the rise of the self-esteem movement that also seems to coincide with the spread of government insinuation, and which i think also has a lot to do with this current topic of discussion. if we are continuously told that we are all winners all the time even when we are patently not, how else would we learn to react when we learn or are told that we are losers, or that we are making bad financial decisions, or that fat is not beautiful, other than with disbelief and petulance? if we are fat, and it draws an adverse reaction, it is not our fault or responsibility but the fault of those who are making us feel bad about ourselves often by just being healthier and in better shape (anyone remember Harrison Bergeron?).

there has also been some interesting research on “post-industrial value change” in which as societies attain certain levels of affluence the values held by the population quantifiably move from materialism (physical and economic security) to post-materialism (freedom of self-expression, etc.) that also coincides with:
1) the increasing insinuation of government.
2) the rise of the self-esteem movement
3) and, perhaps paradoxically, the steep rise in obesity rates

at the same time, cross-cultural body image research shows that the more affluent and (often) obese a society becomes, the more widespread the body dissatisfaction, with women being particularly prone to underestimating the size of the body shape actually preferred by men just as men overestimate the muscle mass preferred by women, while in general the average man or woman appears to be moving away from their assumed if exaggerated ideal body at an increasing rate.

so i guess the question becomes: are all these factors just occurring together? or are they somehow linked? i don’t know, this all more or less occurred to me as i was writing this out. is there a connection between more affluence/leisure and increased government involvement in society and the rise in obesity rates and a greater emphasis on safeguarding self-esteem (coddling?)? and if there is a connection, would changing one of the factors affect the others in a linear way – i.e., would limiting the reach of government contribute to a decline in obesity rates? or are all these things just happening simultaneously with no connection?

beats me…JB?
Shea Says:
March 6th, 2010 at 1:53 am
(or anyone else – i meant to open that to any one who might have an interest too)
Donatello Says:
March 6th, 2010 at 6:49 am
Shea I think you should ask Brad Howard because he is the one who is more familiar with the psychobabble and how to manipulate people’s mind more than anyone else if you want to know about effects of the AI. Personally I’ve had the AI too long I can’t remember the difference because I’ve always been a nice chap and people have always been nice to me. I didn’t see the need to change people’s opinion of me and I don’t see the need to now, so I didn’t take note of how people changed as I got my body into the AI.

I didn’t come across the AI from the website but as a concept 10 years ago when I was 18 and was doing a paper on psychology and the Golden Ratio happened to be a part of my essay. For the sake of a curiosity I decided to mould my body according to the golden ratio. It’s been 7 years since I attained it and as for attraction I have had people from both sexes complimenting me for my looks. I may be gay but I act like any normal guy and I always appreciate a good beer with mates over a game of rugby. So I haven’t had men telling me that they are gay and then complimenting me on my looks.

I don’t mind talking about it but you don’t have to put the clause “if you feel comfortable talking about these things, which it seems you do”. I personally don’t like being told what I should feel or what things should seem to me or others. If you want to know something, ask politely and say please. You get further that way than trying to persuade with mind games (and putting in parantheses like these).
Chris R Says:
March 6th, 2010 at 8:53 am
(Chris, if you thought my last posts were verbose, let me apologize in advance for this one…)

LOL!! I love this site!! Thanks Shea!
johnbarban Says:
March 6th, 2010 at 9:52 am
Shea,

I think it’s all linked. No matter what industry/road you try to travel you’ll almost always end up against a wall of rules and regulations handed down from some authority organization.

It’s at this moment when the modern man gets emasculated to some degree and have to revert to childlike behavior asking for ‘permission’ and begging and pleading their case.

I think it’s all linked to an erosion of freedom and an ever controlling state system. The less freedom we sense that we really have the easier it is for us to explain away and blame our situation, and our failures on the system and seek handouts wherever they can be obtained.

The race isn’t to become the most noble, respected or trustworthy man, the race is to get as much of the pot by any means necessary as possible…because if you don’t you know someone else is…in which case you’re the fool for not trying.

It’s a bit cynical but put to a test I think this is more of what is really going on. This of course is only possible because of a lack of free market competition in the first place. But that is a much bigger conversation that I don’t think this simple comment thread can handle!

JB
James Says:
March 6th, 2010 at 10:39 am
Shea & JB,
I too see the trend. It is an interesting concept and I have enjoyed seeing the discussion play out. I do think it is all linked, I don’t really know the best way to explain it all because I would probably over-simplify it. But this thread is probably not he ideal place for this discussion, so if this does get discussed at another time or place I would gladly like to hear it and if I am available at the time I will also like to express my own thoughts or ask any questions I may have about this subject.
Jordan Says:
March 6th, 2010 at 2:01 pm
Thanks for the link, Anthony. What a bunch of BS. After seeing how easy it’s been for me to reduce my food consumption over the last couple of weeks, I find all these “alternative” theories re: overeating to be pretty irrelevant, at least for me personally. (I want to be careful to not speak for anyone else. I’m no expert, I’m just an experiment of one.) Insulin, leptin, ghrelin, bacteria, “Neolithic” foods, fructose, refined carbs/ sugar, an obesogenic environment, not enough protein… whatever! I either put the food in my mouth or I don’t. So far (and I admit I’m just starting out,) I’ve only needed one thing: Commitment. Some might say discipline or willpower, those are good terms, too. But for me, the concept that most closely matches how I feel about this is commitment. Once I truly committed myself to eating less- not less carbs, not less junk food, not less fast food, but less food, period- the rest has been a piece of cake. Or a piece of pie, as the case may be.
Chris R Says:
March 6th, 2010 at 6:34 pm
Donatello,

If you obtained the perfect AI 7 years ago, and started your quest 10 years ago, then I’m assuming it took you roughly 3 years to ‘obtain’ it (please correct me if I’ve assumed wrong). That being said, I’m curious to know what your ‘shape’ was when you started? Being around 18, were you a skinny dude or were you overweight? I’m asking because all of the people on the AI forum (myself included) are striving to get to our Golden AI ratio and we don’t often hear from someone who already has it, or who has maintained it for an extended period. We are all starting from very different places and I’m curious to know where you started from. Also, once you ‘get there’ is it fairly easy to maintain or do you work just as hard to keep it now as you presumably did while you were building it? Just interested in your take on that. Thanks.
Donatello Says:
March 7th, 2010 at 12:35 am
Chris, what I can tell you is that I probably started my quest in a reasonably good shape. I was involved with track and field in my high school back then so I was quite lean and had a bit of upper body strength. If I were to really put a guestimate I would probably be 1.45 to 1.5 then. Of course, I didn’t actually know that your waist to height ratio would ideally be 47% until I came across this site. I actually aimed for the waist size that would give me a defined six pack and then aimed for a chest 1.618 times bigger.

Having said that, reaching 1.5 to 1.618 got exponentially harder and harder. I have never done steroids, so I could only reason that as your body reaches its genetic potential the rate of muscle growth will just slow down, otherwise Arnold Schwarz would probably be able to get to his size without having to use steroids. It just got harder and harder for me to put chest size on.

I did try eating more calories because my rugby mates said that eating more will help you put muscle, but all it did was just make my waist bigger without adding much to my chest size. So I just ate normally and sought to maintain my waist while slowing building up my chest. I’m 1.78m (5ft10) but it took me about 2 to 3 years for me to add the last 10cm to my chest (from maybe 115 to 127cm which is my upper body size now). Maybe others have gotten there faster compared to me without having to use steroids so don’t take my story as truth. You will seriously need to find great motivation if you are willing to slog it out and seeing the gains build up bit by bit. Good luck.
johnbarban Says:
March 7th, 2010 at 10:47 am
Donatello is right on the money here. Muscle building simply takes time. ALOT of time. And it does get exponentially harder as you reach genetic potential.

The idea AI ratio is our best calculation and estimate at what your natural genetic potential might actually be (without steroids of course)

Perhaps if you dedicate all of your free time to getting a bigger upper body you might…might be able to push past our calculated numbers…but why?

So waist size is easy to get to in a relatively short period of time. Chest/shoulders/back is the part that takes patience and effort.

JB
Donatello Says:
March 7th, 2010 at 12:11 pm
Also here’s another 2 cents, one thing I also notice is that using steroids probably distorts your body’s natural and genetic shape irreversibly, meaning that even if you do get the ratio, it probably won’t look as good as it would if you hadn’t taken steroids. You could probably get away with it wearing clothes on, but if you took your shirt off your muscles will look a bit “lacking” and less “full” than it would be if you went all natural from the beginning. I could only reason that this could be due to the fact that most of our bodies are designed to fit into the golden ratio, so we have an idea chest size to begin with, and upon reaching this size our muscles would have the right firmness and shape for its size.

Let me explain, I knew a few guys who took steroids and how their shoulders were really big, but it did make them look stumpy and somehow oversized (imagine an oversized ratio for their height). And when they came down to the golden ratio, the reduction of their chests to the golden circumference just didn’t provide the same firmness and fullness as a steroid-free person with the golden chest would have. Instead, these guys on steroids, upon reaching the golden ratio, their pecs and back and biceps looked flabby and not as firm as a normal guy at that golden ratio would have. It just looked really weird. These guys would probably need to have a far bigger chest size before their muscles looked firm and pumped. By the time they reach that they probably would have exceeded the golden ratio, not very appealing I’d think.

Of course there are many factors determining the pump and firmness of muscles, but I guess what I’m trying to say is that taking steroids only thwarts the natural look our body should have and actually artificially and irreversibly increases size of muscles before we get that pumped and natural look.
Shea Says:
March 7th, 2010 at 4:11 pm
donatello,
i appreciate reading your observations about your personal process of getting to the golden ratio, and also about approaching our genetic limits and the likely counter-productivity of steroids in achieving this optimal look. nothing else speaks like first-hand experience.

one question i have, though, is about your reaction towards the notion of taking notice how our physical appearance could also affect the way others react towards us – which i interpret as relatively hostile from your references to this as “psychobabble” and as manipulation. is it that you don’t believe there is such a connection? or that people shouldn’t change their bodies to elicit such positive reactions?

given that you have evidently worked hard to attain and maintain such a specific ideal proportion, i assume you have strong motivations for doing so, but it is not clear to me what those reasons are if not at least in part to be perceived favorably, even if only just in first impressions. following your logic (at least as i am reading it), getting a stylish haircut would also be a form of manipulation, except in the case of the golden ratio it would be a haircut that requires paying attention to what we eat, progressive weight training, and takes years to achieve.

i understand that the coincidental health benefits might also be an important factor, as i know in my own case those are also very important, but it seems disingenuous to suggest that the aesthetic aspects and their social effects are not also relevant, which returns this discussion to JB’s original post about our innate aversions to excess body fat on march 4th that kicked this all off.

and, given the past history of this thread, i just want to explicitly state that it is not my intention to attack or impugn anyone with these questions. i enjoy the sincere discussions and am curious about others perspectives.

cheers
Donatello Says:
March 7th, 2010 at 5:52 pm
if your intention isn’t to attack or impunge, then in reference to “one question i have, though, is about your reaction towards the notion of taking notice how our physical appearance could also affect the way others react towards us – which i interpret as relatively hostile from your references to this as “psychobabble” and as manipulation. is it that you don’t believe there is such a connection? or that people shouldn’t change their bodies to elicit such positive reactions?”, your interpretation is wrong. while I believe it is everyone’s prerogative to read into whatever was written and said and derive different meanings, there’s nothing in between the lines of my comments as far as i put it, and whatever you read is whatever i mean.
Shea Says:
March 7th, 2010 at 7:31 pm
D,
fine. not a big deal, just a question i had.
Chris R Says:
March 7th, 2010 at 9:08 pm
Donatello/JB,

Thanks for the response. Thats sort of what I figured. I’ve pretty much experienced it first hand in that I’ve lost almost 5″ from my waist in 5 months and I’m only another 1.5″ from ideal, but obviously I haven’t made as much progress in my shoulders. I’m currently at about 1.48 with still quite a way to go in the muscle dept. I’ve dabbled with weight training for a couple of years but its been inconsistent. It’s only been the last 6 months where I’ve really been training (since discovering AI). Fortunately I didn’t expect the muscle thing to happen overnight, and I’m fully prepared to keep at the weight training even if it does take a few years (mainly because I love the way it makes me feel). Sorry, last question for Donatello, do you work just as hard to maintain it (I mean more in terms of the weight training). i think the waist speaks for itself, if you eat too much, your waist will increase. Thanks for the honest response.
Chris R Says:
March 7th, 2010 at 9:15 pm
PS – Donatello, regarding your comments about steroids, I totally agree. I think its because we all have a skeletal frame that is designed to incorporate the muscles that we are genetically predisposed to carry. Steroids distort those muscles but can’t distort the bones, ligaments and tendons that must carry and activate those muscles. This may also explain why you so often hear of these severe ligament and tendon injuries on steroid abusers. Just my thought to expand somewhat on what you were suggesting.
Donatello Says:
March 8th, 2010 at 5:20 am
Chris R, unfortunately, for these people who have used steroids, achieving the AI will not give them the firm musculature they seek that comes with a naturally golden body.
Miika Says:
March 9th, 2010 at 6:04 am
@Anthony Ramos: Funny article “Do obese children get that way because of bad parenting? Maybe bacteria that increase appetite are playing a part.”

Oh boy, maybe excuses that are made are playing a part.
Orville Rish Says:
April 2nd, 2010 at 4:17 pm
good publish, i specially enjoy studying about this topic, i hope you can write more following this one
Taylor Farinacci Says:
April 20th, 2010 at 5:57 am
Hi, been reading your blogging site for a long period. I run a related blogging site however I keep receiving a lot of spam responses, how do you keep your blog page so unpolluted?
johnbarban Says:
April 20th, 2010 at 9:47 am
Taylor,

You’ve got to install an anti spam plugin. If you’re on wordpress get the ‘akismet’ plugin.

JB

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